09:36:50 From Tom Kunc : ... how are we going to deal with that? 09:36:57 From Tom Kunc : We're pushing 1000 students in the first term 09:36:59 From Marc Chee : Yeah we have so much spare capacity available :P 09:37:09 From nicola kwan : https://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-universities-are-dying-and-no-one-is-coming-to-save-them-20210517-p57snv.html "At UNSW in one computer science course, students had just one hour a week of face-to-face and everything else online. No one is encouraged to turn on their cameras." 09:37:19 From Marc Chee : We might want to run multiple versions of the same course in the same term 09:38:01 From Shrey S : I think 1511 already has 1000 students (or rather 932 in T1...) 09:38:10 From Tom Kunc : Nah we had 850 by the end of the term 09:38:20 From Shrey S : ah wait im reading the capacity numbers 09:38:50 From Marc Chee : 940 at the beginning, 850 at the end 09:38:55 From Shrey S : ahhh 09:38:57 From Marc Chee : so you're both right :) 09:42:00 From Tom Kunc : What is a course review? 09:42:19 From Marc Chee : Is this an external review? 09:43:00 From Marc Chee : I meant, external to course staff . . . because us as course staff are reviewing and updating every term 09:43:25 From Marc Chee : because you and Andrew have a lot of spare time to do this, yes? 09:43:47 From Tom Kunc : Worth noting that (and perhaps this is a 1511 specific concern) most of our problem is that we can't change content without affecting follow-on courses. I note that this happened when 2521 was being prepared this term; it was unclear what content had gone from 1511. 09:44:10 From Carroll Morgan : What content -had- gone? 09:44:33 From Marc Chee : Reviewing the "core path" through first year is quite important 09:44:50 From Marc Chee : earlier on, we cut file IO 09:45:11 From Shrey S : ^^ the degree plans on the website are also incorrect. Currently, it's student societies and students who are giving advice on the "core path" through first year 09:45:34 From Tom Kunc : Honestly I think 1511 should become 1911; that's a logical course to copy 09:45:54 From Carroll Morgan : I don't know the numbers :-(. Is 1911 data-structures? 09:46:08 From Carroll Morgan : Evidentally not. 09:46:11 From Shrey S : 1911 is 1511 without linked lists I believe 09:47:30 From Tom Kunc : I might write up my thoughts more concretely, I keep saying this and then this discussion happens... 09:47:32 From Marc Chee : Just a kind of reorganisation of 1511 through to 1521, 1531, 2511 and 2521 might get us going 09:47:32 From Carroll Morgan : What is 1010? 09:47:38 From Marc Chee : 1010 should be a gen ed yes> 09:47:39 From Tom Kunc : 1010 is "Art of Computing" 09:47:39 From Marc Chee : ? 09:47:50 From Tom Kunc : it teaches Python and Excel I think? 09:47:53 From Carroll Morgan : Ah... Knuth for first-years. 09:48:04 From Tom Kunc : It's aimed at non-ENG students 09:48:20 From Shrey S : Drat, there goes my plans xD 09:48:26 From Tom Kunc : Might be worth excluding COMP1911 and ENGG1811 too? 09:48:34 From Andrew Taylor : can you do unidirectional exclusions?? 09:48:56 From Marc Chee : If you exclude ALL COMP courses that would work . . . effectively turns it into a Gen Ed 09:49:46 From Andrew Taylor : This would exclude 23 of 81 21T2 enrollments 09:50:21 From Marc Chee : That looks like it's definitely a loophole that's being exploited at the moment 09:50:31 From Tom Kunc : Excuse me, it does exclude 1811 already. Notably, it *shouldn't* exclude you from doing COMP3511 or COMP6441 09:50:46 From Tom Kunc : So I think "exclude all COMP subjects" may be too far 09:51:21 From Tom Kunc : Does that mean f2f exams? 09:51:32 From Shrey S : and herein lies the eternal question 09:53:03 From nicola kwan : https://acoa.eng.unsw.edu.au/login 09:53:11 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : "tool for writing course outlines" ...a text editor? 09:53:18 From Carroll Morgan : :-) 09:53:29 From Andrew Taylor : we plan for (essentially) all T3 courses to offer f2f small-group classes sufficient that any any students who prefers f2f can have it 09:53:42 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : so a course outline IDE 09:53:52 From Carroll Morgan : Are we not doing that now? 09:54:22 From Andrew Taylor : is there a vscode plugin 09:54:40 From Carroll Morgan : Until three-years later they decide to changes it; and then there is another convulsion. 09:54:47 From Shrey S : +1 to push back 09:54:50 From Marc Chee : What's Inspera? 09:54:57 From Shrey S : Invigilated exam software 09:55:04 From Tom Kunc : Yes Andrew there's a VSCode plugin, it uses 110% of the server it's run on. 09:55:12 From Shrey S : oh sorry Im thinking of proctoru 09:55:14 From Shrey S : but yes 09:55:17 From Shrey S : exam software 09:55:20 From Tom Kunc : Yeah it's uninvigilated aiui 09:55:53 From Carroll Morgan : There has been bad press about exam invigilation software that worries if you go to the loo, 09:56:01 From Andrew Taylor : and no stack either currently 09:56:12 From Tom Kunc : I thought it did have programming questions (albeit really bad support for it) 09:56:18 From Bruno Gaeta : And no formulas questions? 09:57:32 From Andrew Taylor : thereare some superb teachers elsewhere in faculty 10:03:13 From Andrew Taylor : Didn't COMP2111 get replaced by DESN2000 10:06:32 From Shrey S : following on - is this proposal going to add 6721/2111 to be core for seng? On the handbook page and I can't see that it's core currently 10:06:36 From Marc Chee : Some of that went in, but yeah it got pushed aside 10:07:47 From Tom Kunc : 6721 is specifically excluded for SENG students as of right now, I believe 10:07:51 From Bruno Gaeta : I’m looking for a finger up emoji 10:08:09 From Bruno Gaeta : Middle finger that is 10:10:43 From Marc Chee : Are these arrows the "flow of content" as in which things become pre reqs for other subjects? 10:15:04 From Andrew Taylor : where does seng2021 fit in this order 10:15:06 From Raghav Lall : Students will be a bit intimidated / confused why they are doing a level 6 course after Comp1511 10:15:24 From Bruno Gaeta : My apologies. I have to go to a medical appointment. Don’t add too many new core curriculum courses while I’m away 10:15:53 From Carroll Morgan : :-) 10:16:49 From Carroll Morgan : Yes --- It can't be called 6---. 10:17:09 From Andrew Taylor : 20 of the 91 students who've ever taken COMP6721 are pgrads 10:18:28 From Carroll Morgan : SENG 2011 in 2014 was COMP6721 in content. 10:19:37 From Carroll Morgan : (and there was no COMP6721 in 2014). 10:21:48 From Shrey S : I would very much suggest not to add more core's. changing core's maybe - but I'm not sure what you would remove to make up for it 10:22:00 From Carroll Morgan : (so Andrew's numbers will be higher) 10:22:03 From Tom Kunc : @jas are you happy for me to send the link to this Zoom to Chris Di Bella? 10:22:11 From John Shepherd : Yes 10:22:25 From John Shepherd : I thought I’d already sent it to him 10:22:32 From Tom Kunc : He just DM'd me, I've sent it to himn 10:23:13 From Christopher Di Bella (he/him) : Hi, sorry, I didn't have the link to the call. 10:23:30 From Tom Kunc : We're still on the previous agenda item Christopher, so I think you're all good... 10:24:42 From Andrew Taylor : I'd like to see COMP2111 & COMP6721 attracting 100+ students before consider creating a specialization around them 10:25:19 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem there, don't you think, Andrew? 10:27:40 From Tom Kunc : Speaking as a [former] student, I think it would be great to have 6721 be available to more people. 10:28:58 From Tom Kunc : I think part of it will also be communication -- I've sent students to 6721 because I told them it was amazing. I think that's a great way of running a tiny course, but not for 150 pax 10:29:25 From Carroll Morgan : pax = passergers? 10:29:34 From Tom Kunc : *ppl apologies 10:29:42 From John Shepherd : “pax” eh? next they’ll be “clients” 10:29:53 From Raghav Lall : What is the benefit of creating these specialisations? As a student it looks like more courses are being locked behind prereqs to me. 10:30:05 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : I read it as the latin for peace 10:30:09 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : which was profoundly confusing 10:30:14 From Carroll Morgan : :-) 10:30:15 From Tom Kunc : donna nobis pacem, jas 10:30:29 From Shrey S : Could we please loop stureps any proposed SENG degree changes before they are decided on 10:32:50 From Andrew Taylor : speicialization create significant obligations for CSE, we don't want to create themlightly 10:32:53 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : raghav, I think the benefit is that you'd then have less courses wasting the first four weeks teaching the same things from scratch 10:33:52 From Shrey S : is the pdf in the agenda the same as last time it was brought up? 10:34:26 From Alan Blair : There are two 2nd year courses that are required for SoftEng but not CompEng. You need to figure out what material is needed for SoftEng but not CompEng, and put that material into those two courses. 10:34:46 From Andrew Taylor : an unkind person would suggest this says something about c++ 10:35:48 From Alan Blair : Actually 3 courses (COMP2041, SENG2021, SENG2021) 10:37:00 From Carroll Morgan : Is that an SENG issue, managing projects? 10:37:20 From John Shepherd : Yes. Which SENG course covers it? 10:37:38 From Marc Chee : A slight side question, but are there possibilities to run courses that go over multiple terms at a lower load? 10:38:03 From Tom Kunc : As in, 2 terms of 3UoC? 10:38:20 From John Shepherd : Discouraged 10:38:21 From Tom Kunc : That's possible to do (see ENGG[234]600) but I'd be surprised if the school wanted to do that... 10:38:32 From Carroll Morgan : The SENG stream (Ken's) used to do that, and I think (but am not sure) there are teams in SENG2011. It used to have to have a "project management" component, which was taught by someone from the business school. 10:38:44 From Carroll Morgan : Maybe it still does. 10:38:55 From Marc Chee : Yeah, just the goal of showing students that code needs to last longer than the duration of an assignment/9 week term 10:39:25 From John Shepherd : No. And the business school doesn’t teach it in the right way fror our students 10:39:57 From Carroll Morgan : That's indeed what the students said afterwards. Still, for some reason we had to do it. 10:40:13 From Tom Kunc : The comments I made last time: - High workload (community work probably not commensurate with marks) - The ethics seems somewhat unrelated to the rest of the course. I understand it's important, but might be good to tie in further 10:40:41 From Tom Kunc : - Very reliant on the course staff knowing what's what - Monads covered elsewhere, possibly OK, but worth noting 10:41:32 From Andrew Taylor : a terminal course not in a specialization is less of a concern 10:42:55 From Shrey S : Industry tutors/lecturers are also very hit or miss 10:43:08 From Tom Kunc : ^ what shrey says. 10:43:44 From Carroll Morgan : They used to be... 10:43:59 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : if you design a course that's meant to teach techniques they'll need in industry currently, isn't that also a course whose content will become obsolete quickly as industry trends flutter away on their butterfly wings? sounds like potentially a lot continuous revision work 10:44:12 From Carroll Morgan : Agree with Johannes. 10:44:34 From Carroll Morgan : How tied to the proposal is the usde of C++? 10:44:48 From John Shepherd : Very 10:45:11 From Tom Kunc : Except week 5, which I wish was in every course... 10:45:11 From Shrey S : We have 15 minutes left. Asessment practices + course offerings 2022 seems like they definitely need more discussion that 15 minutes can offer. Could we push to next edc meeting (specifically assessment practices) 10:46:32 From John Shepherd : OK … we’ll push them … but I want to mention them before we go 10:46:37 From Tom Kunc : +1 to Chris's point 10:46:44 From Shrey S : sounds good, I just want to make sure its not buried 10:46:50 From Shrey S : and also +1 to the ethics point from chris 10:46:56 From Carroll Morgan : Nicola: Do you have the link for the VC's talk? 10:47:15 From Shrey S : https://teams.microsoft.com/l/meetup-join/19%3ameeting_YWU1NWM5ZjYtYTQwNi00NTFiLTlkZWEtNTBjN2UxMDM1N2Zk%40thread.v2/0?context=%7b%22Tid%22%3a%223ff6cfa4-e715-48db-b8e1-0867b9f9fba3%22%2c%22Oid%22%3a%22cf634236-85f3-417f-9cd1-e378668d6721%22%2c%22IsBroadcastMeeting%22%3atrue%7d&btype=a&role=a 10:47:53 From Shrey S : I also have comments from a student POV when there's a chance to speak given there's a lot of comments flooding in atm 10:48:02 From Tom Kunc : I'd note also the EDI stuff isn't covered at all in 4920 (as far as I remember) And I thnk it's *incredibly* important 10:49:08 From Carroll Morgan : EDI = ? 10:49:16 From Tom Kunc : Equity, Diversity + Inclusion 10:50:46 From Carroll Morgan : Having it taught by someone from industry invites a possible scenario where that person's boss says "You have to tsop now, because I need for this." 10:50:56 From Carroll Morgan : *need you for 10:52:24 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : "final exam to omuch work for 2-hours" yeah no shit, that zero time if you have any non-trivial problem solving or programming tasks... 10:53:49 From Marc Chee : The "too much work" complaint feels like a messaging/communication issue. Anyone who thinks they should be able to complete all the work in an exam is someone who should also have a realistic view of what marks they're getting. If I see them with a WAM of 100, then maybe I'll agree that they should be able to complete the exam in the timeframe . . . otherwise, they shouldn't be able to finish it 10:54:09 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : agre 10:54:11 From Johannes Åman Pohjola : e 10:54:24 From Shrey S : especially when the sample exam is not indicataive of the difficulty 10:54:31 From Tom Kunc : I might update our course outline to be clear about when marks are released... 10:54:37 From Shrey S : it creates false expectations for students 10:54:44 From Marc Chee : also, students can definitely get their assignment marks back before exams if the uni stops scheduling exams less than a week after term ends 10:56:36 From Marc Chee : If the complaint is about a mismatch between the exam and the course, then we might need to know which courses this applies to so we know if we need to rewrite our exam format 10:56:40 From Marc Chee : (per course) 10:56:42 From Andrew Taylor : myexperience gives us a good sample of feedback pre-exams, our post-exam feedback is too anecdotal 10:57:01 From Tom Kunc : Jas quick question -- is there a list somewhere of all the programs that depend on COMP courses? 10:57:03 From Alan Blair : When you say “in future”, does that mean a future with in-class exams or on-line exams? 10:57:39 From Tom Kunc : OK I'm gonna try and collect that data then, 10:57:46 From Marc Chee : post results surveys might be nice . . . I've always thought it'd be really useful to know about that. Also surveys from people who have dropped a course to find out why 10:57:48 From Andrew Taylor : better induced 10:58:13 From Raveen de Silva : +1 to surveys from withdrawing students